Ban The Burka?, a current issue in some EU countries

[grumpy]

For those who have never heard the term "burka", it refers to a veil covering the face, worn by muslim women in countries with muslim majorities aswell as many european states.
Belgium has recently banned the wearing of face coverings by law in public places and implemented a fine system for those caught wearing it. France,Italy and Spain are still considering future legislation on the topic
Is this justifiable, in your opinion, or a sign of intolerance?

[aussiemcgr]

It depends on the reasoning.

I know that in a lot of areas of the United States, it is illegal to wear mask and other face-concealing items when entering stores. Its not an intolerance thing, its just for security. If someone tries to rob the store and they are wearing a mask or something, it is much more difficult to ID them. Try walking in a United States bank with a mask on, you wont be standing for long.

If their justification is for surveillance, then its not an intolerance thing.

[Ed]

From my understanding it is not actually an Islamic custom yet tribal, in the Qur'an it states women should 'dress modestly', it does not state they should cover their faces.

In those tribes it is an oppressive male dominance which forces females to wear them, in the EU as a constitutional right, females are given equal rights to males.

Rather than 'banning the burka' we should be addressing the bigger issue which is social integration for these individuals, obscuring of the face and male dominance within the Islamic community. I don't think criminalising someone who is following their beliefs (or is being forced to do so by their spouse / male relations) is the correct approach.

We should be offering them outlets, ones to help them get over self conciousness that causes them to want to hide behind a veil and the male oppression, have laws against this, not the wearing of the burka; In addition police should be given the right by law to request someone to remove any obscurity over their face, not strictly pertaining to religion but the bigger picture, hoodies, bike helmets (obviously while not on a bike) in public places, but not by default but by request, yes not easy to police but it would have an adverse effect, if women in burkas kept getting approached by the police to ask them to remove it, there's a possibility they would not want to be hassled each time and resort to not wearing a full face veil and something a little more modest and fitting with the current society.

So overall, I don't believe 'banning the burka' is a good approach, there's problems which bubble under the surface which need to be addressed more than the actual wearing of the burka.

[Jacob]

As Ed has stated it, they are not forced to wear a burka, it is merely a choice as they are only required to cover the "inappropriate" parts of there bodies (which is neck to knees[?]).

It should be banned if they are in another country which they have migrated to, such as Europe. For the main and simple fact that if someone has migrated, they should assimilate to the cultures and acceptable practices of that country. E.g. One of our women could not go over to a muslim country and wear a bikini out and about like they do here, they would need to assimilate to the accepted practices of that country so why should it be different for them?

[grumpy]

For the main and simple fact that if someone has migrated, they should assimilate to the cultures and acceptable practices of that country. E.g. One of our women could not go over to a muslim country and wear a bikini out and about like they do here, they would need to assimilate to the accepted practices of that country so why should it be different for them?

Personally, i think its wrong, even in a muslim country, to tell people that what they're wearing is "culturally" unacceptable.
If what your wearing isn't actually bothering anybody, or infringing anyone else's rights, you should have the freedom to wear whatever the hell you want. Afterall, culture itself is a dynamic thing, built on people's choices, its not like a uniform. No country can claim to have its own set culture that limits people's choice of clothing. In the UK for example, you wouldnt be surprised to see people wearing jeans... although jeans originated from America. The world of fashion doesn't hesitate to bring together styles and patterns from other countries and whatever they come up with is worn openly, subject only to people's personal taste.

A good feature of a democratic society is that people are at liberty to make choices about things that would only affect them presonally. If I wanna wear a burka, say, i dont think its anyone else's business to tell me not to. It might mean I "stand out", but if i dont mind that, nobody else should. Likewise, if you wanna migrate to a black neighbourhood and wear a KKK outfit every day, you would be allowed to do that, at your own responsibilty. It wouldn't make you popular but you could still do it.

Another example would be "goth culture", seen in a minority of teenagers today. Originated in medieval Scandinavia. They're not in medieval Scandinavia. Who cares.


As for Ed's and Aussie's point on the need for identification in banks / airports.... fair enough, that's true. But, there is obviously a simple way round it. Like in Qatar, where as soon as a burka-wearing woman enters such a place, a female staff member will ask to see her face and check it against her ID/passport. Even if European establishments didn't want to got such effort, why does the Belgian ban extend to all public places?

That won't aid integration, it's more likely to halt it before it begins. If burka-wearing women aren't even allowed to pop down to the shop for some bread and milk, they just won't. Society will be keeping members who can't work, study, socialise or advance the economy in any way; and simply stay at home, being kept by their family/husband or living on welfare. Alienating people won't solve the "integration" issue.

[aussiemcgr]

Another example would be "goth culture", seen in a minority of teenagers today. Originated in medieval Scandinavia. They're not in medieval Scandinavia. Who cares.
As for Ed's and Aussie's point on the need for identification in banks / airports.... fair enough, that's true. But, there is obviously a simple way round it. Like in Qatar, where as soon as a burka-wearing woman enters such a place, a female staff member will ask to see her face and check it against her ID/passport. Even if European establishments didn't want to got such effort, why does the Belgian ban extend to all public places?

I want to point something out thats interesting about the airport security on this matter. In the US, because of the Freedom of Religion thing (which can allow you to do just about whatever you want btw), the women with burkas on are not required to remove them when they go through security. This is because on the Passports or IDs for them usually show the woman wearing the burka on the picture. The only thing the picture gives away is the eye color (because the eyes are usually revealed). This is a huge problem cause there is no definitive way to prove the identity and there is nothing that can be done by security or the custom people because that is the way their picture ID was done.

I know that usually, the only burkas I see around the US show the face but conceal the hair (like a hoodie or something) and I think that you arent even allowed to wear that when you enter a bank. I believe that if you enter a bank wearing a hat, the security people usually ask you to take it off, so I would assume they do the same here.


Also, sidenote, totally off-topic, but not really, just got an Internship with AirTran.

[Hillyer]

Again, I could be ignorant.. but if residents of Europe travel to the Middle East, are we not told to "dress modestly" or to "cover up"? So surely, if we conform to their rules it shouldn't be a problem for them to conform to our rules? Is that too much to ask? If I set a "dress code" to a party, and someone didn't come in "dress code" they wouldn't be allowed in. Simple.

So, if I went to the Middle East and was told to cover up, and I had a problem with that, then I would come home? Sure.

[Jacob]

...In the EU as a constitutional right, females are given equal rights to males.

Now there is one of those ridiculous out dated laws that need amending.

[barriemore12]

@Grumpy i think the burka is the traditional dress of the Muslims woman and the Belgium government forced to banned the burka it's not the right things they have done.

[wfano]

Ban the burka has the same meaning as banning low-rise jeans...

[Geneo]

I agree with Ed, however we have to add more to this...why would countries like Belgium or even France consider banning this " burkah" or "burqah" ? Because if the secular tradition of those states - whereby they are not seen or will not overtly support the Catholic clergy nor would they be seen as making religious comments or winking at the Pope...likewise they cannot support over-religious public displays in public schools, government buildings, where secularism is enshrined.

Also it becomes another issue...a cultural one. When we visit countries of the Arab world, when in the streets, foreigners are impressed that they should dress modestly - for women this means the knees must be covered, hair as well as well as arms...not considering 90 degree weather. This is not even including Saudi Arabia where even the Greek ambassador's wife some years ago was beaten with a stick by religious police for not stopping for prayer.

Now compared to that, what European countries are asking for is not much...and when you immigrate somewhere it is expected you have to live somewhat by the local rules or at least adapt somewhat...as foreigners would in the Arab world today when visiting for example.

Also lets not forget...these countries in the Arab world were much more "westernized" in the period of 1890-1960's than they are today. If you watch old Egyptian films from the 50's and even 60's you will see women dressed in western clothes, not covering up...they were more open societies than today. Iran is a sad example of a country that was westernized, modern, forward thinking, and took 1,000 steps backwards with the cavemen ayatollah's took over in 1979...now women in that country can not even drive or walk alone...

So in my modest opinion, European countries should ban this burkah, or even head scarfs...for women...do we want to see women covered up? hell no. Not me at least. Turkey has done well to not allow burka's by law...and should make it more effective...now the other countries should follow suit.

This has to be done while addressing also the assimilation or welcomness of these immigrants to European society, naturally.

[richerdjohn]

I agree with Ed, however we have to add more to this...why would countries like Belgium or even France consider banning this " burkah" or "burqah" ? Because if the secular tradition of those states - whereby they are not seen or will not overtly support the Catholic clergy nor would they be seen as making religious comments or winking at the Pope...likewise they cannot support over-religious public displays in public schools, government buildings, where secularism is enshrined.

Also it becomes another issue...a cultural one. When we visit countries of the Arab world, when in the streets, foreigners are impressed that they should dress modestly - for women this means the knees must be covered, hair as well as well as arms...not considering 90 degree weather. This is not even including Saudi Arabia where even the Greek ambassador's wife some years ago was beaten with a stick by religious police for not stopping for prayer.

Now compared to that, what European countries are asking for is not much...and when you immigrate somewhere it is expected you have to live somewhat by the local rules or at least adapt somewhat...as foreigners would in the Arab world today when visiting for example.

Also lets not forget...these countries in the Arab world were much more "westernized" in the period of 1890-1960's than they are today. If you watch old Egyptian films from the 50's and even 60's you will see women dressed in western clothes, not covering up...they were more open societies than today. Iran is a sad example of a country that was westernized, modern, forward thinking, and took 1,000 steps backwards with the cavemen ayatollah's took over in 1979...now women in that country can not even drive or walk alone...

So in my modest opinion, European countries should ban this burkah, or even head scarfs...for women...do we want to see women covered up? hell no. Not me at least. Turkey has done well to not allow burka's by law...and should make it more effective...now the other countries should follow suit.

This has to be done while addressing also the assimilation or welcomness of these immigrants to European society, naturally.

We should be offering them outlets, ones to help them get over self conciousness that causes them to want to hide behind a veil and the male oppression, have laws against this, not the wearing of the burka.

[xixiblue]

I agree with Ed, however we have to add more to this...why would countries like Belgium or even France consider banning this " burkah" or "burqah" ? Because if the secular tradition of those states - whereby they are not seen or will not overtly support the Catholic clergy nor would they be seen as making religious comments or winking at the Pope...likewise they cannot support over-religious public displays in public schools, government buildings, where secularism is enshrined.

[aimeesparker]

wearing anything is to in my point person own dicision, government cant force or its illegal to force them not to wear anything which they want to. if security concerns there should be point where the show there identity while entering stores or banks and its simple not a big deal in todays world.

Aimee Sparker
HGH - testosterone - low testosterone

[vikramrandhawa]

It is the muslim tradition we cant say anything..In the news recently, there has been much controversy surrounding the wearing of niqabs or burqas in public places. Although Muslim women often wear variations of head and face veils, niqabs and burqas are special in that they are veils that cover most or all of the face. Because their faces are not completely visible, women who wear niqabs or burqas have had trouble at work, airport security checkpoints, and in court.

I dont there should ban the burkha..

[jarulsolo]

The garment is an locution of inequality, and the telltale inform is that the men do not individual their modality unclear by a conservativist of topology. But we don't poorness evidence when the refer intent of the burqa is to protect the take of men by preventing opposite men glimpsing their women.

Few fill in our grouping are more sporadic in the humankind beyond their face entranceway than the mate within the garment, yet we maintain our temperament of this nonmodern enforcement by describing its act as a matter of prize for the spouse. But we know that the friend has, effectively, no selection, that to decline to fatigue the burqa she would tally to resist her civilization, religion and the men who determine her sentence.

[wp34]

thanks you....

[whitemedia]

It's a shame that security and national policy should even suggest the ban of headdress. These pieces instill a great line of tradition, religious, and political value. Who is to say what we should and not wear?

[ammyrodrics]

This is generally a trend or we can say ritual to wear burkas in Muslims..But not these days actually..Now people are advanced and they don't force anyone.Even such kinda fashion is made a trend by the designer people...

[jimmycarter]

It depends on the British Law but it is not good for Muslims women.